It’s time to think hard about how to deal with people that cross lines in our society. There are two elements in sending someone to prison; punishment and rehabilitation.
Should people like Stephen Howells II or Nicole Vaisey be given second chances? Did they give their victims a second chance?
Did Paul Bernardo and others of this ilk?
While it’s a blessing that the girls escaped they and their families will live with this forever, and it may change how the Amish live their lives in their remote normally peaceful areas.
When I lived in Los Angeles I had bars on my window and a steel door. I was not in prison; but in Beverly Hills. Same when I visited family in Las Vegas, who also had an twelve foot fence around their property.
These monsters end up holding us all hostage to some degree just by the thought of something possibly happening. That’s insanity.
In the case of the Amish girls a choice was made to abduct them. Abducting them for the purpose of harming them should be a crossing a line of no return. In an age where we are struggling with monies for health, education and even basic needs for many in society, the amount of money that it will cost to prosecute and punish these two in our current system could support a lot of people .
It’s wrong It’s terribly wrong. This is a situation where if proven in court deserves one clear penalty, or if some sort of leniency were granted another.
This isn’t an “I got drunk and did something stupid crime” . This isn’t an “I was upset and did something stupid crime”. This wasn’t an “I was off my meds crime either.”
This was a predatory crime with drastic results.
There should be no mercy for these two. Anyone that would abuse a child really deserves no mercy. None.
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Jamie – I agree with the seriousness of the crimes here committed. I believe this is how it is morally in our society today – Judges 21:25 “In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes”.
We have kicked out God, His Word, His moral standard of right and wrong, and yes, His example given of righteous justice before our eyes – punishment should fit the crime. Ecc 8:11 “Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil”.
We,as God’s creatures,think we can determine right from wrong (or worse then that there is no right from wrong-relativism), deal out justice, and survive without God, but it is not happening. So much humanistic thought has corrupted us, that we are now worse than barbarians. It is what we believe, it is what we have been taught – Darwinism, and it is what we think we are – animals. Why not live like one? It will be human pride in our reasoning,in our psychology,and in our love for self that will allow these injustices, these barbaric cruelties, to continue. Society’s conscience is almost dead!
And the worse part about it all, is that, as we further reject a true and saving knowledge of God from the Holy Scriptures, and replaced such revelation by humanism, rationalism, religion, etc, the more God withdraws His restraining influence on the evil hearts of men. Secular history in the light of Biblical history sets this forth every time and everywhere. Even the nation of Israel of old was granted such privileges-graces and mercies, such righteous judgments, but in the end, God had to judge her time and time again. Why? – Psa 9:17 “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God”.
Romans 1:28″ And even as they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do the things not right…”. That these two mentioned above would do such is a testimony of the depravity of the human heart, but that society would turn a deaf ear and a blind eye in indifference and apathy is a sure sign of God’s reprobating a nation, such as Canada. We may fail to deal out righteous justice, but be sure of this God won’t fail!
God,in the past has in His mercies, has broken in on society with what is called true, biblical, evangelical revival. Such revivals of God’s people have often ended up in what is call a Great Awakening. There has been seven such awakenings record in secular history – staring with the Great Protestant Reformation of the 1500’s. Our only hope, is that God would do it again. 2Ch 7:14 “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land”.
They should be locked up to protect society. No death penalty. Too many well documented wrongful convictions for that option.
I really dont believe jail or prison rehabilitates sexual predators or anyone else in that matter. It’s definitely punishment to have to do time but clearly people like this deserve a lot more then that. Those little children didnt have a choice why the hell would they ?
Hi Furtz, I know that there are cases of wrongful convictions. I totally get that; but in cases where there clearly is 0% of that such as the Killer Colonel we had a few years ago; or Robert Picton, or Paul Bernardo there really is no reasonable doubt of innocence. Also, putting some of these monsters in prison causes even more cost because most can’t be in the prison population because the inmates themselves would dish out a moral punishment.
Disagree Jamie. Under our system, and in the US, guilty is guilty with no reasonable doubt, otherwise it’s not guilty. There’s no such thing as “probably guilty”. Also, in the US, it costs less to house a prisoner for life than it does to kill them. The endless appeals and legal wrangling leading up to an execution cost millions. I’d like so see some of these monsters dead too, but the rules have to apply equally to all who have been declared guilty. Google wrongfully convicted Canada, and you’ll see why the death penalty was abolished in Canada.
Hi Furtz, I get that our justice system has failed many when it comes to the death penalty in Canada and the US. (just as it’s failed many others including yours truly so far) And agreed, the current system of appeals is very costly.
There are no “easy” answers, but there are choices we in a society have to make just as we’ve made the choices that created the status quo.
Jamie Canada’s justice system is a real joke and I spit on it. What should happen in both Canada and the US is to do like what they do in Syria, Lebanon, etc. and that is to hang the person upside down and whip them until they die and that would be the way to punish them and to cut off their appendage that they did the crime with. I have been reading this for a few days now and it was mighty sickening to see that they were sexually abused as well. Well Jamie the people of Cornwall talk but nothing happened when the sex abuse was done by Cornwall’s hyarchy and all was swept under the rug. There is no justice and like I said so many times before there is only JUST US. I have no respect at all for what they call laws when it isn’t instilled for all people.
Use name ‘Susie’ please
I once asked a Psychologist why these predators were not locked up since there is no cure and they could re-offend. He said there is no psychiatric diagnosis for them . Scary. Doesn’t make sense.
Dawn you are a registered nurse and have seen so many cases of all kinds. You even had training in the psychiatric unit during your days of training as a nurse. My eldest sister went through that as well. Sure there were plenty of problems in the past with sexual abuse of children but today it is an epidemic and not just with children but with grown up girls and adult women. Today people lost all their morals and none to be found and that has a great deal to do with why society has gone amock. I agree with Furtz that you have to lock these people up to protect society and even to whip them to death is my motto. No jail will not turn these animals around for the better. I should not insult the animals since animals have a great deal more care and feelings than what a lot of people have. Society today is completely lost. Yes Jamie in the US people sure do put bars on their windows and have steal doors. When my daughter visited her cousin down in Los Angeles she was shocked and scared to be down there. She couldn’t wait to come back to Canada. At 14 years old she made the trip alone going and coming back and stopped at O’Hare airport in Chicago. She was more daring in those days compared to today.
We’ll never agree on this Jamie, and that’s cool. Until someone can convince me 100% that no innocent person will ever again be executed by our Ministry of Justice, I’ll be 100% against the death penalty.
On a happier note, let’s be thankful that we don’t live in a country where religious fanatics decide who should live and who should die.
Furtz the thing I appreciate about disagreeing with you is that unlike so many in our area it doesn’t mean we should kill each other, lie about each other, or try to cause one of us to lose our income.
I am not necessarily an advocate for the death penalty.
I am not an advocate for protective custody in our prisons. Within our society we are relatively free to move about. Prison is a society within our society that restricts that relative freedom of movement. Within prison I believe that there should also be relative freedom of movement. Rapists, murderers, thieves, and others are all there because they have lost their individuals privileges within the greater society. Let them mingle. If an individual finds death at the hands of another inmate than that is simply prison justice. I believe that for most criminals the death sentence does not serve as a deterrent. When an individual through their actions gives up their rights within society at large our obligation to protect them in my opinion ceases. If a child molester for example meets his/her end at the hands of another inmate, so be it. Like I said, prison justice. Different society, different set of rules.
Because Canada is a reasonably civil society, prisoners (guilty or innocent) have a right to the necessities of life. That includes the right to not be murdered while in custody.
I will say something here and that is if anybody ever laid a hand on my kids they would suffer immensely at my hands before I would literally kill them and I don’t care what would happen to me afterwards but I would have my revenge. This is how things should be and believe me you don’t see much crime in places where this happens. The crime is here in the west where society is mighty sick in the head.
Hey Jules if you think western society is so sick in the head where exactly do you see justice? In the lands where marriages are arranged and 12 year old girls have died after internal bleeding from their wedding night consummation with their usually much older husbands? How about in the land where to punish the son for theft the village rapes the daughter? Or maybe even the place where marrying a Christian means you can be stoned to death.
Greg Reynolds there is no justice in Canada at all and the only justice there is is for the protection of the rich. The little people have no chance in hell. As for Islamic men (older or young) marrying young girls of 12 years old that happens among the uneducated class and barbaric. The educated classes do not live in that way of life. What you see on TV and newspapers is not the educated people nor civilized. We know of a man who is a Christian Maronite who was either 22 or 24 at the time and married a girl of only 14 or 15 and had 3 children and now divorced. The marriage took place in Lebanon but these are people who have no education or anything. Good people do not live that kind of lifestyle at all. Here in Canada people live the same barbaric type of life of common law, kids living as latch key kids, kids bounced from parent to parent on a whim, abortion, divorce, etc. This society has gone down hill and we speak about this on a daily basis as one of our conversational topics – it is a very sick society today. Porn on the net, porn on the TV and you can’t escape it – the society has gone downhill and mighty lost. Yes I sure would torture and kill whoever would lay any of their grubby hands on my children and that is the entire truth. I have no respect for what they call law here in this country because there is none.
Take heart Jules. The Harper Government is working really hard at getting our incarceration rate up to the US rate. That should give you a reason to vote.
Greg writes “Or maybe even the place where marrying a Christian means you can be stoned to death”. Extremes, extremes. I suppose Greg you are agreeable with the overall lawlessness in our society? You would not mind more of it? And you are satisfied with the overall job of our elected officers, judges, legislators as they administer justice in our land? You are a pretty extreme person – “give me liberty or give me death” – sorry, needed to borrow that from the real Libertarians!
Somewhere along the way we have to come up with a moral standard for the good of all society. Either this or that is wrong and should be punished accordingly, or society on a whole will fall apart. Wait a minute, that is already happening – Psa 9:17 “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God”.
You are right on the money Pastor Newton. Our society has become a Godless society and inhabited by demons. I don’t just say that as words but as truths. People haven’t seen anything yet but what is happening in the Middle East and in the Ukraine may spread over here as well. You are seeing things happening in Fergusson Missouri and I have known about all this and so much more since many years ago and I am always doing research and heard plenty. If anybody who doesn’t believe in the Good Lord and holds His commandments I can assure you that hell is coming this way and if you die then you will be in terrible trouble. WWIII is coming and this is all true.
Furtz do you know that Harpoon Harpo already has prisons that are like those of the US mostly out west (mega prisons) and I have been doing studies for a very long time now. I have been praying and hoping that Harpoon Harpo would wake up and put a strong clampdown on the people. You and everyone haven’t seen or heard anything yet. Hold on to your shorts and to your chairs because you are going to hear things happen more in the US and yes even here in Canada and around the world. I won’t say too much but mighty bad things are coming. You will all be on your knees praying to the Good Lord for help. The Pastor is doing his best to try and make people see the light and when you don’t wake up then you will be the one in trouble. I have a great deal of respect for Pastor Newton and for Jamie.
Furtz I am going to make you, Jamie and everyone here a promise and one thing is that I have always been truthful and I keep my promises. If Harpoon Harpo toughens up on crime and stops anchor babies from happening then you will see your Jules go to the poles and vote him in. I have never once voted for Harpoon Harpo but if he keeps these promises then I too will keep my promise to all of you and I mean every word that I say. As God is my witness I swear to Him and to all that if Harpo keeps his promises and toughens things up then he will get my vote but if he doesn’t pull through then I will not vote at all. Justin is not made to be PM at all. He would be lucky to be a dog catcher. Any idiot who leaves his door unlocked is asking for big trouble. He lives with the very rich and that means nothing. I live where there is shooting going on and I sure am not that stupid.
As Mr. Newton keeps reminding us, we should be thankful that we live in a country where religious fanatics don’t decide who should live and who should die.
Furtz don’t be too sure about that. You have no idea what is already here and what is coming across. What is coming across through the US from Mexico, Central and South America are not just Latin Americans and that I can assure you – they all look alike except for language. There are many Arabs that live in Latin America and with citizenship. There are things that are going to happen eventually that are going to shock all of you and the world leaders know all about it. The people are not people but sheeple and follow the herd over the cliff.
@Furtz…Prisons are a society within a society. The concept is that an individual who commits an offense against society and is incarcerated after due process forfeits their rights. After the period of incarceration is served their rights after parole are returned either in whole or part(subject to the laws of the society).
Liberalism has eroded the original system. Prisoners were given the right to vote a little over ten years ago. While this goes against a matter of principle it was established that as long as they are Canadian citizens they are protected by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
The idea of offering a prisoner “protection” I believe is a convoluted notion on the basis that where a victim of a crime is concerned their right to protection as you would call it was stripped away. So I would ask why should a prisoner be entitled to that which he did not honour of another? Makes absolutely no sense. If fairness and right is a two way street than a prisoner should enjoy the same level of safety that his victim had at the time of the crime. That would be fair. Laws are not necessarily fair which is why they remain subject to change.
@Furtz…following your line of reason should I not have the right not be murdered while not incarcerated?
@ David, in a civil society such as ours, like it or not, prisoners do have certain rights. They include the right to the necessities of life, and the right to a safe environment. Very limited, but very basic rights.
Not sure WTF your next comment is supposed to mean.
@Furtz…you had made the statement “the right to not be murdered while in custody. This does not acknowledge the simple truth that the criminal himself did not extend that same “right” to his victim. This places the rights of a prisoner/criminal above that of a law abiding citizen which is why I stated that the concept was convoluted. I hope this clarifies my previous comment for you.
I agree that prisoners/criminals should have basic rights pertaining to the necessities of life. However that does not, should not, include illegal drugs, television, tobacco or any non essential. The point of incarceration is the forfeiture of the rights and privileges of that “civil” society.
No point in going around in circles, David.
BTW, if I was stuck in a room with a television on for weeks at a time, I’d consider it cruel and unusual punishment.
“I suppose Greg you are agreeable with the overall lawlessness in our society? ”
No. I didn’t see state that at all. As you well know I was responding to a comment where it was implied that western society was sick in the head.
“You would not mind more of it? ” Huh? Who would want more?
I think you are missing out on the overall goodness of society here in the west as your focus is always on the doom and gloom. You are free to preach and not be thrown in jail for it or beheaded Pastor Newton. You and I can write whatever we like here on Jamie’s site and not have to worry about the the authorities knocking on our doors and dragging us off into the night and then sending our families a bill for the cost of the bullet. People have been robbing, raping and killing each other since the dawn of time. Every generation thinks it’s the worst it’s ever been and the end of the world is around the corner. We have a moral standard (law) in Canada and although not perfect, it certainly protects us from the Taliban that seem to come in many religious forms and allows us to coexist with each other as we try and make our forward in the world.
The crime statistics for Canada are pretty clear. At this point in our history, the chances of being a victim of serious crime are lower than ever.
@Furtz…solid point on the state of television.
@Furtz… exactly right, we are safer than we’ve ever been and yet there are twice as many of us as there were in 1950. Oddly enough, church attendance has declined steadily since the 1960’s.
Greg, nothing really odd about the decline in church attendance. People are slowly cluing in to the nonsense.
@Furtz…if crime in Canada is down or under control or whatever, than why have policing costs gone through the roof? Why are the police afraid to leave their vehicles and walk a beat? Why do we in Cornwall have the largest police force (ratio to citizens) to the best of my knowledge, than any other community in Canada? Why do I not feel safer than I did 10, 20 or 30 years ago? Why was I a victim less than 3 years ago on my own property?
Personally I do not share the opinion that we are safer.
@ David. It doesn’t surprise me that crime statistics mean little to you. No one is saying that crime is under control. Obviously, crime will always be with us. The fact is that on a per capita basis, the overall crime rate has been dropping steadily for the last thirty years. Policing costs are going through the roof for a number of reasons. Policing has become an industry rather than a service. They have all the latest and greatest technology, and ever increasing rates of pay. The cost of policing is in no way proportional to the crime rate.
Crime has not gone down in Canada but instead is on the rise. I see it on the rise right here in Ottawa and all major cities in Canada. No way can one believe that crime is down. Just read the papers and live here in Ottawa to know what is going on. My area of the city is riddled with crime – one shooting and stabbing after another along with drugs, etc. In the past none of this has eve happened like this at all. Most of the crimes are done because of the drug trade and prostitution.
@ Jules. Believe whatever you want, but I’ll put my money on the statistical evidence as provided by Statistics Canada. Just because you live in a high-crime area, it doesn’t mean that the whole country is a high-crime area.
Jules, you’re 100% wrong. Furtz is correct, the crime rates at all levels from petty to serious crimes have decreased over the last 20 years. Look it up. Sorry but you can’t argue with statistical fact. You may think “..none of this has ever happened” before but 20 years ago we didn’t have the internet for news and TV news stations sensationalizing reports from around the world. We had CJOH TV reporting on local news which thankfully for the area we live in, was relatively peaceful. The sky is not falling. I’m sorry you live in a crappy neighborhood.
I don’t know where Jules is getting her info. But crime has gone down in Canada.
When I was growing up in Ottawa it was common to see a kid take a few slaps across the hands from the teacher’s ruler. If my friends and I stayed out too late or mouthed off to a neighbour there was a spanking in our immediate future. My grandfather used to pinch and slap waitress’s bums and my sister and I would look at each other and snicker. He’d also get behind the wheel of his Chrysler Fury and drive hammered out of his skull and if the police stopped him they would tell him to go straight home and sleep it off. My Dad came home bloodied with his 10-speed bike bent completely out of shape after getting creamed by guy who nearly ran him over in broad daylight on Booth Street. Driver took off. Dad stopped using his bike to commute after that one. All of these events looking back at them are crimes I suppose. Now I can’t prove it with links at the moment, but I’m certain spousal and child abuse were more commonplace then than today. As Marc points out, we are bombarded with all types of instant media from all over the place reporting crime. This hype is simply packaging and selling fear and it benefits the media moguls and the police industry without a doubt.
@ Greg. I’d never condone the behavior you describe, but you nailed it. The perceived (and false) notion that crime is on the increase also plays into the Harper government’s game plan. Get tough on crime, build more and bigger prisons, and lock up more and more people… and ignore those bums at Statistics Canada.