CFN-Earlier today members of the local Language Fairness for All – LFA group were joined by members of the Ottawa area Canadians for Language Fairness – CLF umbrella group in front of Cornwall’s taxpayer-funded French-only medical clinic.
In late May the groups converged in Chesterville, catching James Moore, Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages, quite off-guard. We covered that story. That day some members carried a makeshift coffin decrying the (near) death of democracy in Canada. Today they were sporting a cardboard bus and shouting: “Back of the bus, English; know your place.” The groups are drawing attention to the apparent lack of fairness in current language laws, their interpretation and heavy public funding of minority language groups outside of the province of Quebec. Today, they were specifically pointing out the disparity in funding and access to service, whereby hospitals and clinics are being pushed to be 100% bilingual or French-only, while English-only is no longer an option.
In our video clip you’ll see and hear their demonstration as well as hear from some participants, including a few newcomers.
Cory I did answer… and yes I have travelled and if I may say so myself I’m quite a happy man. As for character, I have done nothing wrong …I simply defend my beliefs, Here, I have been called an asshole, and idiot, dumb..and I’m sure i’m forgetting some. And, as for debating, on issues such as bilingualism, i’m not as researched as Kaede ..but, I think I have proven you wrong more then once.
As for me it is more the principle and the agenda that bothers me as I am not one for statistics. Like I said before, anyone can find what they are looking for on the net to suit their purpose. Depending on the author, the stats differ. Therefore I do not debate statistics…….not my thing. But I will defend my culture and will not accept that we are the cause of all the problems in this country.
Patrick I see your point but you’re comparing apples and oranges here.
Let me tell you why. Because languages should be taught at home by parents. I see the same with religion as well. It is the institutionalization of these subjects that I have difficulty with. Financially supporting separate schools, separate cultures, identities, etc. and expecting everyone to pay for it seems like nonsense to me if one is not to use the services. I think ethnic communities should band together and find solutions to economic problems without relying upon government support. This could be done through businesses, private wealthy individuals, fund-raising, etc. Why not have large corporations fund these types of things? In that way, it wouldn’t hurt taxpayers at all! This would free up money for our infrastructures.
As far as special programs are concerned, I would like to add some to the list that you included above as well Patrick. I have worked before with special needs kids for over two years. In that time, we always could have used more money for specialized computer programming and services. The thing is though, once the products were purchased, we re-used and recycled them for successive students coming into the program! What I’m trying to say is that all attempts were made to perpetuate what little we had to help all others. Seen from a language perspective, why couldn’t literacy programs (with little funding) and volunteers help spread the learning/teaching of French; instead of high-priced schools, teachers, school boards, etc. So much government money is used for this purpose of promoting French. I truly think if these types of things were done on a volunteer basis, it would have better results with much much less financial backing. Why would it work? Because unlike highly paid teachers/professionals, volunteers (often times retired professionals) really, really want to do it for the good of it!
It is not the language that I have issue with, it is this persistence that everyone needs to learn it in order to work that I have difficulty with it. I am going to say it, and get in trouble for it, but things would be easier for all of us if we had one language to work and live by, regardless of whatever language that would be. Be it French, English or any other actually. If we chose one, and stuck with it, it would save us billions for more pressing matters. Truth be told, I wouldn’t care if it were French that were chosen; it’s just the politics of forcing the issue that bothers me.
Let’s look at how the Republic of the United States functions. I find we Canadians tend to look at our Southern neighbours as gun-toting rednecks. I’m not sure whether this is from popular television shows like ‘Swamp People’ or America’s increasingly violent foreign policy but there are many Canadians that feel that way. But there is something to be said of their cultural melting pot. New York City I believe boasts of citizens from every country on Earth. The city itself is really a city-state and some countries on Earth don’t have the population of this one city. We don’t hear of all of this language problems in the U.S. Perhaps even more telling, we don’t hear about the language issue in Europe, either. I think both Americans and Europeans are kind of looking down on us for this issue. I have heard it even in Cuba too.
Europe doesn’t have this problem that we have. Most Europeans speak 4 or 5 languages. I don’t think that any langauge(s) are legislated though. Is this our problem? I’m not sure but it seems like a Canadian thing anyway.
A few thoughts,
Cory
Les “Holden” your last post before today was “lets ignore it all for a few days and see if they argue with themselves!”
Glad to see you are back. Kind of reminds of a song.
Oooh the cat came back, the very next day, the cat came back, thought he was a goner, but the cat came back because he couldn’t stay awaaaaay. ***Smile***
OMG yes I had a typo, Not everyone perfect OMG the world is falling apart I wrote Camerno……
JC…..please!!!! OMG unbelievable LMAO…….now this is funny
I am happy that I made you laugh but you still did not answer my question on how we would lose our culture at the doctors’ office. Avoiding my question LMAO?
What do you think? I read what I wrote! I am the one that wrote it! Ridicule you say? I am not suggesting that we communicate through sign language. Like once again you twist and turn words to suit you. What I am saying is that it does not matter what language you speak you can always try to communicate by making gestures. What I’m telling you is should the CCH hire only nurses that are multi-language to help all of Cornwall’s Community? One Nurse that speak Mohawk, English, French, how about sign language as well. What you are saying is that you believe CCH should only hire Bilingual nurses. I would be in my glory to be taken care by any English Nurses. ANY!!!! They have the experience and the knowledge to take care of any of us and they are great people that are able to obtain full time employment!!!!!!
patrick that’s 2.4 billion every year and for but one culture/language – I guess all other languages do not deserve any of that piece. of the pie.
We need representation by population that’s the reality -and would solve many issues -to say no to that is to disagree to democracy and have oligarch system .
French is the 10th most spoken language in Ontario -remember that 4% -but the lions shares for subsidy for Gov funding!
How about this we treat the french in Ontario the same way that the English in Quebec are treated….sounds great doesn’t it?
What francophones in Ontario don’t agree-what Quebec doesnt treat its minority well?
If any of you think that quebec politics has nothing to do with Ontario -why is there a push for bilingual in Ontario for only 4%!!!
Democracy is dead clearly -English you have subjugated yourselves by inaction .
Just because you do nothing its assumed you agree with this !!!
Highlander… DEAL!!
We start building our french university tomorrow…
We’ll need another college to compare with Québec…
We” also need towns like Kirkland, Pointe_claire, most of west island..towns that have a high anglo population and some REFUSE to speak french…
All the signs will be bilingual. (Don’t really care if its three times larger in english as long as we can read it in french)
You could be in Shawiningan and still get some service in english…but, i’d get funny looks if i required service in french in London Ontario.
THere is a shortage of nurses, and I have been a patient at the CCH and they work extremely hard. WHat happens most of the time is if you have a certain percentage of bilingual nurses, they sometimes end up helping anglo patients, which is great, but when a french patient requires service, he either has to wait because a bilingual nurse is not available or he has to speak english.
Highlander, do you read what people posts or do you have an answer ready without reading the whole thing.
Cory, very coherent, well said, DISAGREE with it completely.
I’ve worked as a nurse at the CCH for 3 years, and never once witnessed what Mr. Boucher just stated. Not once. Any names ar examples Mr. Boucher? or did I just here a toilet flush? Lets see numbers and true facts..not fabricated stories to suit your claims.
I worked the ER for almost 3 years..NEVER had any problem with the french-english controversy as some would have you believe..I’ve worked medicine and psychiatry..NEVER had a problem. Let’s start giving names, places, and factual numbers..not heresay, speculation, and down right lies.
Patrick is there something wrong with someone that’s French speaking English, in Ontario? Nope. I think you’re making this highly political. The bottom line is that when you are in crisis and go to the hospital that you are seeking medical treatment; not linguistic nirvana.
While ideally a patient is immediately served in English or French based on choice, in a medical emergency there should be no room for politics.
To suggest that someone can live a unilingual Francophone life from birth to death in Ontario in 2012 is as silly as suggesting that someone can in English in Quebec. That’s the reality. The fact that Ontario and the rest of Canada doesn’t systemically treat Francophones as badly as Quebec does is something that should be respected if not praised.
If Francophones wish to preserve their culture and language; which I admire; it should not be at the expense of other cultures and languages. Forcing non-Francophone staff to perform at higher levels of French than than most of the Francophones they serve is utterly counter productive.
And if you don’t demand it from Doctors then don’t demand it from other staff. Frankly I find this all a waste of money. Let’s invest some of the billions in automated translation.
Apple has an app that you can play a song and it will tell you the name and lyrics. We surely can do that for patients that cannot communicate in English to medical staff if that staff member is linguistically deficient.
I’m all for bilingual nurses and staff, and even doctors. I’m against closing doors to people when we need more nurses. Speaking French should be an advantage in job competition. Ideally 100% of staff would be bilingual, but the only way that could happen is if we make sure our schools turn out proficiently bilingual students and we know that’s not going to happen in Ontario.
We need to take the politics out of this debate and issue. And we need to get CCH to do the same.
“…anyone can find what they are looking for on the net to suit their purpose. Depending on the author, the stats differ. Therefore I do not debate statistics…….not my thing.”
So you demean the poster, ask for proof, and when it is presented you refuse to believe it? You and I have played that game if you recall. I’m still waiting for my apology.
I guess my question dear Stella/Carlita/dancer extraordinaire, why do you even bother posting and asking questions if you don’t want an answer? Is it just to see your “name” in print?Is it just because you think loudest is rightest? Or are you just a troll getting their jollies?
I like to mudsling as much as the next guy.. however, most of these posts are way too far left or right wing..go ask a nurse how they feel..most of us know at least one…ask them about the language controversy. You certainly don’t have to take my word for it..the general public should be aware that the CCH is staffed with well trained, caring professionals, who truly feel that this controversy is being driven by special interests groups on both sides of the fence. Be content.
hjdjholden4@sympatico.ca
July 19, 2012 at 1:14 pm Eric respectfully to you and your “movement” Galganov is not my friend…..please refrain from any slanderous intentions..thankyou..
My comment was directed to les habitants, unless you are the same, feel free to reread the first 2 words in post.
les habitants is often associating people with groups, much like you did associating me with a movement. I am regular, but do not belong to any group. LOL
stella, blurbs on the internet are 99.8% factual, the internet told me. LOL
There is nothing wrong with someone that is french speaking, to speak english. But, in an emergency situation, bilingual staff is needed because of stress of a possible negative diagnosis or maybe because of specific questions asked by nurses to pin point your problem.
I agree with you, it has to do with service, and every time I went to CCH I had to speak english. Is there something wrong with that NO. WHen I had a major operation and had to be transferred to Ottawa, had I not had a french speaking nurse, that would have added to my stress. Think of this, if you hire bilingual staff it is cheaper for you. They can service 100 % of the people coming in while unilingual individuals can’t.
Admin, you probably have never been to Kirkland, Pointe-Claire or anywhere in West-Island Montreal. You can live very comfortably being unilingual anglos in Québec.
You also wrote¨ Forcing non-Francophone staff to perform at higher levels of French than than most of the Francophones they serve is utterly counter productive.¨That isn’t true. Francophone tests are hard. The french language has alot of grammatical exceptions that are even hard for francophones such as myself to master. But it isnt impossible. As a francophone i’m not asking service in french comparable to Molière, just an effort. ANd to suggest that the tests are hard, maybe, but not impossible to pass.
2.4 billion in education to promote bilingualism that is alot of money. But it is necessary considering it helps out nearly a quarter of Canada s population…plus, its what most canadians want. I’ll agree with you on the following phrase you wrote¨ is if we make sure our schools turn out proficiently bilingual student ¨ Our education system might need some improvement…but to suggest that francophones remain bilingual and anglos unilingual.. not the right solution.
ferris……..you couldn’t have said it better. Absolutely right!!!
Let me say this: Why does someone need to publicly protest like a bunch of fools to make a point? If they feel wronged….why not do what they have to do without TRYING to bring the entire city into it. You have a problem….then deal with it……fight your own battles. JUST DO YOUR THING AND GO ABOUT YOUR BUSINESS instead of trying to seperate and stir the sh@t. The entire scenario reeks of trouble making.
Go to the elected officials or present yourself as a group to “les membres du parlement” and plead your case and let the cards fall as they may…..there is no need for the BS., the put downs and the controversy. LEAVE THE FRENCH CITIZENS OUT OF IT!!!
JBC first of all, if your comment made sense I would reply to “How we would lose our culture at the DR. office” Hmmm
Using people who are mute to defend your stance on the language issue is pathetic and wasn’t worth a response, but I did respond to try and make you see the absurdity of the comment.
Patrick Boucher
July 20, 2012 at 7:53 am There is nothing wrong with someone that is french speaking, to speak english. But, in an emergency situation, bilingual staff is needed because of stress of a possible negative diagnosis or maybe because of specific questions asked by nurses to pin point your problem.
Before travelling, do you call hospitals to be sure French speakers are on staff, just in case?
” is if we make sure our schools turn out proficiently bilingual student ¨ Our education system might need some improvement…”
After 42 years of the Official Languages Act and 26 years of the Ontario French Language Services Act, we see no more bilingual than before these acts. “Some improvement” is an understatement!
Very few are trying to wipe out French, but teaching the 1,000 French only speakers in Cornwall English, would have been finished by now, and much cheaper and without the animosity.
So eric, what your saying is because of costs, the minority should conform to the will of the majority…we made such progress in the 26 years since bill 8. eric, since some of you are preaching equality and fairness, should you call the hospital when your traveling. Nope, and you shouldnt. But to blame francophones for being bilingualand to ask them to forgo their rights, to blame bilingualism for all our economical problems is ludicrous.
25 regions out of ontario… thats not alot..
bilingual service for more then 15 000 people in Cornwall.. not too much to ask for.
25 regions in Ontario covers over 80% of all Francophones, and most municipalties, that is alot. Ontario has many associations, advsiory committees, language coordinators etc. that French is not going away, but is well taken care of.
When your bathtub or pool is full, do you leave the water running?
We have reached a pretty good representation for Francophones to find service.
Can anyone on here tell me what “rights” a Francophone does not have?
Please, Patrick, stella, and others, provide a letter to the editor on here explaining what more English Canada has to provide!
Patrick-stop putting words in others mouths ,who is foregoing your rights ….if you believe in only your rights?
What about the rights of others who can’t work for their own government?
You need to better inform yourself.
You said 25 regions out of Ontario ..that’s not a lot
Well look it up those 25 areas encompass 90% of the population!!!!
15000 people not much to ask for
Well 15000 out of 100000 to include local areas and the Mohawks =15% well the hospital is now 50% biligual so what
About the 85% -I guess their livelyhoods don’t matter in society as well as to you.well that’s alright they are second class citizens to you!!
Eric……we are not complaining about rights we do not have. We are concerned about the jealousy shown by your group of the rights we do have and how you are desparetely trying take some of those rights away……. Simple enough????
Stella-no one is taking rights away but wanting the rights for others .
People make this a language issue of which is not .
It remains a job equity issue ,all people need to be on equal standing,all people need to be respected.
Still no rights are to be taken away ,but think of it as appropriately distributing them FAIRLY.
Patrick is equality and fairness telling someone that you can’t have a full time employment because your are not bilingual?
You are also saying that they have to move out of the large 25 regions in Ontario. Some of these people have been raised in these areas all their lives and are not ready to leave their home. Where are their rights? How about I tell you, you and your family have to move away to Northern Ontario because you are French. How would you feel about that?
Stella you wrote….
“we are not complaining about rights we do not have. We are concerned about the jealousy shown by your group of the rights we do have and how you are desparetely trying take some of those rights away……. Simple enough????”
You are complaining!!!! Why not having services for eveyone and making it a bilingual clinic. We would be making it equal instead of labelling FRENCH ONLY CLINIC!!!!! That is not equality! Your right are still there, are you are still getting services in French.
For the 500th time……..you have 3 other clinics plus emerg. why do you want a 4th one? You guys are obsessed with the clinic….LOL!!!! Oh lala!!! I guess the french clinic was a necessity in Cornwall…..IT IS FULL!!! No more new pateints……Capish? That argument is getting stale, you will have to think of another one.
Jealousy is an awful thing!!! Heading to church now and will pray you all will see the light some day **smile**
Stella, you wrote:
“But I will defend my culture and will not accept that we are the cause of all the problems in this country.”
We are not saying this. We are saying that the laws in this country are favouring a select group of people in regards to employment and some social services to the detriment of all others. When this happens, of course you will have jealousy and envy. French only clinics and preference for all things French is not fair. You and others have deemed us a desperate bunch. Of course we are. Like you, we would also like to have a chance at a decent life with a good paying job and be able to afford to pay for our children’s education. Why is it that in Canada, the only fashion in which to do this is to learn a language?
Seen as a parent, it’s as if to say the government (parent) favours one child (French) over all others (English, and minority groups) – this is the mainstay of our argument. We have been trying to say this repeatedly now and you cannot see this.
In the United States, everyone is treated the same and it’s individual merit and hard work that decides one’s fate. Not knowledge of a language. I have seen countless people whom do not deserve the post in which they occupy but do so only out of knowledge of the French language – they cannot do the job itself well.
Just because one is proficient in a language doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll be proficient in the performance of the job itself! Language is only the vessel in which the act of the job is performed or delivered. A call centre employee is still punching keys on a computer to give credits, open accounts and have them paid.
Would you rather a person that speaks French or English incompetent in their jobs or one that speaks French or English that is competent?
Stella you wrote:
“For the 500th time……..you have 3 other clinics plus emerg. why do you want a 4th one?”
Who exactly is the ‘you’, you are referring to? Are you saying that French language services are not offered at the other 3 clinics plus Emergency? And all of these clinics are really public property, right?
It sounds like Stella that you are labeling public property as belonging to a specific group of people; rather than the public at large? Does anybody else sense this from Stella’s comment?
Cory, let’s be civil now and play nice. **s**
You wrote: Why is it that in Canada, the only fashion in which to do this is to learn a language” Ecoute moi bien. This is not only happening in Canada my friend. With immigration being so prevalent, it has become a fact of life. One MUST know more then 1 language to be ahead of the game. In BC they are telling students to learn Chinese if they want to be successful in their career choices and to get good paying jobs. Language is not only an issue here. A few weeks ago, in Yemen, they were protesting about language issues. It’s a new world out there and one has to be prepared.
You wrote: We have been trying to say this repeatedly now and you still don’t see it” Cory …please give me more credit then that. I undestand your concerns, however I honestly feel that the accusation locally is unjustified…….and you should know why by now. As for the bigger picture…….like I said before, if you feel there are injustices go through the proper channels and deal with those in charge. There is no need to try and form an army and divide the citizenry in order to prove your point.
As for you judging who can and can not do a job efficiently…..hmmm!!!! Thinking that the employer would be in a better position to judge. Thinking also if one is as imcompetent as you seem to think some are, they would be let go especially if they are in the health care profession. I know what you are thinking…..but use a bit of common sense and swallow your pride. **s**
As for your last question………I would want to be treated in the language of my choice because I know if the nurse or Doctor where not professional or were incompetent, they would not be there………
Stella you wrote:
“As for the bigger picture…….like I said before, if you feel there are injustices go through the proper channels and deal with those in charge.”
Actually Stella,
My husband has gone through the proper channels including having written to our M.P., M.P.P and the Prime Minister’s Office. In addition to this, LFA has attempted to meet with Minister Moore a total of 3 times and has been shunned and postponed each and every time to voice their concerns.
Stella you wrote
“For the 500th time……..you have 3 other clinics plus emerg. why do you want a 4th one? You guys are obsessed with the clinic….”
Funny thing is Stella I do not live in Cornwall, so it is not my clinics. My clinics are here in Timmins and they serve all populations from French, English to Cree.
Stella sometimes employers hire because the language qualification is met but because the employee is unionized, guess what…your stuck with the employee whether they can do the job or not so I’m thinking maybe they would have been better off hiring the best candidate for the job.
Stella, you wrote:
“There is no need to try and form an army and divide the citizenry in order to prove your point.”
No there isn’t, you’re right. However, the LFA group is no army. Just a group of concerned citizens trying to bring awareness to a current problem…
Stella and others interested, I think you might be wise in checking this out below. This is a video of a militia inside Quebec. Now, this is more like a group forming an army!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGKN6J3o5rE
JC……….as for Cory’s attempts with meeting with members of “le parlement” Keep in mind that they are busy and have bigger and more important issues to deal with. It takes time. Do you expect them to jump up and put everything on hold because the “fairness whatever whatever” wants to meet with them?
JC……question: SO….if they are not your clinics why do you and Cory keep bringing it up….especially when you don’t even live here? How does the french clinic affect you? Don’t even go there.
JC the army was a tongue in cheek kind of comment LOL. I know you are a small group…….trying desperately to make it bigger. As for your youtube……….it’s not my thing, anyone even an idiot can comment on youtube. Sorry not interested but thamks anyway.
Rosie…..union or not, have you ever heard of someone being let go because they lacked the jobs skills required. I have. That is why they have grievance procedures and arbitration cases. If an employee feels that the employer unjustly fired him/her, they have the option to fight it. An arbitrator will decide if it’s justified or not…….not the workforce.
Rosie…….also, if there is no union, anyone can go to the labor board and file a complaint. There are many options out there to choose from if an employee feels they were let go without justification. I often wonder why that was not done when the “leader of the pack” was turned down for a job. Thinking we all know the answer to that one. “HE” could have proved it right there and then whether the CCH was in fact discriminating. The charges of discrimination and the language issue would have been nipped in the bud one way or the other.
If the employer designated the job bilingual whether it is necessary or not and you are not bilingual enough, there is nothing you can do…no valid complaint. You just have to accept it and take a seat at the back of the bus…
Stella-
Your days of commenting should be over,as you are given info & won’t even look at it.To compare LFA group of concerned citizens who want job equality to an army of people who want to divide is a warped & uniformed opinion.
You Stella fit the saying,”***holes are like opinions-everyone has one!”
What you have to say is irrelevant in my books!!
Have a wonderful day!
Stella you wrote:
“Keep in mind that they are busy and have bigger and more important issues to deal with. It takes time. Do you expect them to jump up and put everything on hold because the “fairness whatever whatever” wants to meet with them?”
No, we wouldn’t expect them to ‘jump up and put everything on hold’. But we would like it if they would stop stalemating in our attempt to meet with them or receive responses…
As voters, we are entitled to voice our opinions with them and at the very least they should entertain our concerns by meeting with us…
Not to do so after three requests is tantamount to indifference to the matter which is odd considering you would think they would be interested in votes.
I guess they are part of the elitists!!!!
After all, according to Mr. Bilingualism himself, did you know that everyone in Ontario, is bilingual!
Stella
I do expect them to jump up and put everything on hold because if they don’t talk to voters, they would not have any issues to talk about in Parliament. It is our concerns and our worries that sometimes pushes issues through to the Parliament and eventually becomes legislation. Do you think by sitting quietly, the people of Attawapiskat would have a new school built for their citizens?
They are not our clinics but our family lives there. Supporting issues that create any barriers among Ontarians is everyone’s issue. Labelling is everyone’s issue. I am Bilingual and it saddens me to see that some French people would stoop so low and worry about losing their clinics when these clinics should be open for everyone. Stella, isn’t Canada Free where everyone has the right to speak up? Just like me!!!!! I am so going there (because you wrote: “Don’t even go there.”) I also have the right to use the clinics should I visit Cornwall.
Stalla the comment you wrote:
“the army was a tongue in cheek kind of comment LOL.” It is what you wrote! And I do believe that it was not a tongue in cheek comment as it was your words and your name ascribed to it. Commenting on the forum is how a person feels, you wrote it, you said it. I too have the freedom to speak.
And Highlander is not shy of voicing is opinion…
Stella, Me, and Kaede have proven you wrong multiple times, have you read our posts. I doubt it. You probably have an answer ready before even reading this posts…if you read the whole thing.
I’ll just go over a few things:
1) You have equal rights if you have the qualifications. Wether your anglo, franco, or mohawk if you have all the qualifications, you can be hired. You guys are making it sound like anyone could apply for a nurse position, if you bilingual…And that is simply not the case.
2) Bilingualism is a good investment. Its what most canadians want, it makes Canada more attractive to every other country, its good for trade. Without it, we will just be the 51st state…for me, i’d rather remain canadian.
3) To even suggest that someone can’t be fired because he is a union worker is just being plain ignorant. You can be fired for cause.
4) Le centre de l’estrie is a good investment. Fulfills a need, and it isnt a french only clinic. Well, CCVS is an english only school ? What if I want my son to learn french there ? ..should i cry discrimination? What if I want to attend St John’s Presbyterian Church…and hear a french sermon ?
Job equality..
The French Language Services Act guarantees the right to services in French from the provincial government in government offices in designated areas of the province.
There are currently 25 designated areas under the FLSA. For an area to obtain designation, technically, Francophones must make up at least 10% of its population; urban centres must have at least 5000 Francophones.
http://www.ofa.gov.on.ca/en/flsa-mapdesig.html
..so not every position is designated bilingual…very few are… now lets not deny equal service for 500 thousand people in Ontario
Mistaken is the concept of employment equality with employment equity.
Best qualified person for job. Not best French qualified person.
It’s so simplistic as to not even warrant debate.
This whole debate can be simplified using Greek philosophers’ take on the issue.
Socrates would say that the rule of law of the state must be obeyed regardless of circumstances because it’s just and creates rule and order. Not for society to have rules would be to invite anarchy and chaos. So therefore society will run smoother if laws exist, despite the fact they may be unfair or unjust. Socrates went to death believing that although he didn’t agree with the rule of law at the time, he saw it’s purpose and followed it; despite individual wants/needs.
….whereas,
Plato would argue that those very laws of the land are unjust and it is the just man that disobeys the unjust rules.
We suscribe to Plato’s take.
Simple enough?
So therefore it comes down to your take on things, right? I wonder how the majority of Canadians feel on this? National newspaper respondents would disagree with your take on biligualism Patrick and how you think that most Canadians want it. This isn’t my ‘feeling’ on the issue or how I may be interpreting the matter but indeed it is fact.
Democracy=Majority
Canada needs to become a Republic!
In my opinion philosophy, sociology and part of psychology are boring. They serve no purpose in a bilingualism debate. In my previous posts I had links from statscan and a link from a reputable survey enterprise that proved me right. Some here are just like stephen harper, if you repeat it long enough, maybe people will believe it. Lets hope that in 2015, canadians will have had enough.
Highlander….ROFLMAO…..you are truly funny!
Question: If my opinions are irrellevant in your books…….why do you read them? When you see stellabystarlight, skip over it…… you would be doing both of us a favor. Besides who are you to be telling me what to read? **sourire” juste pour toi.
Cory….for the 500th time, AGAIN I SAY, what makes you and your group think you have the right to dictate to any organization the criteria of their hiring policies? If being french is a requirement then you must be french in order to be qualified. If one only has nursing experience but doesn’t speak french……..they do not meet the criteria expected by the organization. Nothing complicated about that. Cory…….you are right when you say it is so simplistic it doesn’t warrant debate. WOW right on!!!
Know what? It’s best that we agree to disagree. It seems you (meaning your group) have a persecution complex. Your rights are being denied blah blah blah. Let me say this in the briefest way I can. It took one letter and to get one man to jump on the bandwagon. That’s all it took for this one man to start up a group and cry discrimination. IT WAS NEVER PROVEN IN HIS CASE!!!!! Word of mouth is not good enough proof!!!!
Patrick you said without bilingualism we would be the 51st state-
Really Canada is coposed of many cultures and peoples not just French Canadians.
But this comment does not surprise me ……guess the apple does not fall far from the tree -daddy’s little boy.
You said as well that philosophy,sociology and phychology are boring (surprise),they have no purpose in a bilingualism debate.
All three studies I greatly admire for many parts of each play a part in social developments of those societies and yes bilingualism is part of that said society .
So Patrick I consider your statement an oxymoron.
Regards the silent majority
Tell me Stella….
Any comprehension on your part of Socrates or Plato’s work? How about Aristotle? Have you heard of them? What do you think their approach would be in regards to this issue of bilingualism? I’m curious if they could add anything that we haven’t already discussed in regards to the issue…
The ancient philosophers would have something to say in regards to this. It would be interesting to know how they would view it.
Nontheless, I’m not sure if you’re interested in this at all, as Patrick already has said something to this affect of disinterest in philosophy, sociology and psychology.
Moreover here’s a little something Stella to ponder over when next attending service:
“The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.
Works of Karl Marx 1843
A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right
(Taken from: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/critique-hpr/intro.htm)
silent, I don’t care. I’m just reminded of a proverb some of my teachers certainly applied and so did cory…if you can’t prove your point on facts smother them with b.s. I just find that the three theories I have stated above are the art of saying alot without saying much. In regards to bilingualism, I don’t want to know what durkeim, maslow, piaget or plato thoughts about it. Is it a good thing for Canada…YES… IS it perfect, nope…no law is. But removing does more harm them good.
stella said
“Eric……we are not complaining about rights we do not have. We are concerned about the jealousy shown by your group of the rights we do have and how you are desparetely trying take some of those rights away……. Simple enough????”
Please list each one. I would like to address them, so as to understand better. I fear though, these are only percieved injustices.
We could do a one for one if you like.
Currently, government (us the taxpayer) provide money to some agencies of government to forward the French Langauge Services Act to the benefit of a select few. Why is it so tough to find the actual amount? The only possible explanation is to hide the amount spent from taxpayers.
Patrick says “..so not every position is designated bilingual…very few are… now lets not deny equal service for 500 thousand people in Ontario”
Please check the job ads 2 or 3 times a week for a few months and review your comment.
http://www.gojobs.gov.on.ca/Jobs.aspx
http://jobs-emplois.gc.ca/index-eng.htm
Patrick,
Don’t repeat yourself. Bringing in Marx and company was for Stella, not you. Duly noted was the first time you told us you weren’t interested in sociological, psychological and philosophical theories. Stop raising your hand if you don’t want to be responded to…I write this after you wrote:
The first time:
“In my opinion philosophy, sociology and part of psychology are boring. They serve no purpose in a bilingualism debate.”
The second time:
“I don’t want to know what durkeim, maslow, piaget or plato thoughts about it.”
If you don’t want to know or read about these theories, then don’t read, nor respond to them. But I, like you, as a poster have every right to post what I think applies. Whether you wish to read or respond to them is your wish, like mine. If you don’t like it Patrick, then don’t respond, nor read it. Obviously, you felt like reading and responding though as evidenced by your above comments.
It’s as if to say you couldn’t leave well enough alone. I knew the first time that you didn’t believe the theories of these people applied. But I like to bring a philosophical approach to the issues at hand because I think this may be part of the problem.