CFN– It was a campaign of strong rhetoric from PQ leader Pauline Marois. With just over 30% of the popular vote she earned a minority government and had her first assassination attempt all in one night marring the success of having Quebec’s first female Premier.
Hate politics are not new or unique to Quebec. They usually come in tough economic times, but always have an impact and effect with the public.
More anecdotes are coming to light of people being attacked for speaking English.
I had that happen to myself while living in Quebec years ago and while rare instances they are usually shrugged off as meaningless, but when you’re born in a place and told that you aren’t one of “them” enough it get’s weird.
Video of the Shot
Richard Henry Bain, nabbed as the alleged shooter shouted.
“the English are rising up,” and “there’s going to be fu***ng payback.”
Quebec needs to talk and listen more. Yell and scream less. We need politics that unite people and work together all across the world. The politics of hate and intolerance have a history of only one thing; suffering and blood.
Man Yelled at for Speaking English in Montreal!
This is the slippery slope. This is what happens when you institutionalize injustice. This is what happens when you ignore the charter and wiggle under the “not withstanding” clause.
When people lose their faith in the integrity of justice and fairness they make up rules as they go. When others tolerate them chaos breaks out like cracks in a dam with little trickles until towns get washed away.
At some point Quebec has to make some big decisions. The good news is that Quebecer’s didn’t so much vote for Ms Marois and her policies as they did more to chuck out Jean Charest.
Even though I’m one of those Quebecers that gave up and left la belle province doesn’t mean I don’t hold hope that one day it will regain its sanity and start to move forward again and realize that everyone is part of the culture of Quebec; not just a quaint dream of a time that has long passed by.
Culture and people change all over the World. You can’t hide. And with Social media today anyone with a phone can expose people’s hate and ignorance.
The question is what are YOU going to do when you see it?
You can post your comments below.
Jamie Gilcig – Editor – The Cornwall Free News
(Comments and opinions of Editorials, Letters to the Editor, and comments from readers are purely their own and don’t necessarily reflect those of the owners of this site, their staff, or sponsors.)
Jamie…….I feel you have overblown the issues and the actual circumstances. No the world is not caving in. It seems many are exagerating the true facts. When talking to the average person, things are not as bad as what was is being said here. Don’t forget, many have their own agenda and will stop at nothing to get what they want. They will search until they can the worse possible scenarios to prove their point.
There are nut cases through out the world, do we take their actions at face value? I would hope not. Using the actions of this man to prove a point and to enforce the issue is somewhat of a no brainer.
Stella a man died last night.
Jamie…….I know. It is a tragic and horrible thing. My heart goes out to the families. However, to take this scenario and make it into a language debate just doesn’t seem right. Obviously the guy is nuts…..why would one want to take this type of a person and use him as an example to enforce someone’s views on an issue is beyond comprehension.
Your right Jamie a loss of a soul,violence is never the way.
When someone is driven to this sort of desperation than it’s time for our politicians to take notice. Obviously the man lost it to put it mildly but why hasn’t Harper organized a meeting with Marois, the Anglophone and other ethnic communities to discuss some sort of middle ground for minority rights.
“Don’t worry, your rights will be protected” is not exactly a legal binding social contract between leadership and its people.
Madame Marois’ comment as listed above is so out of touch with reality for the English and other ethnicities rights as they currently stand are already in jeopardy due to things like Bill 101 and the Notwithstanding Clause! I found her statement so whacky if only for the fact that she currently doesn’t see a problem with the way in which things are now!
This shows an institutionalization (if I can borrow Jamie’s description) with the current one-sided thought process.
Yes, Mr. Gilcig, and that man was a true Quebecker killed by an English speaker who happened to be quite mentally deranged and acting alone.
Seriously, I do not believe you. Quebec does not have to change in the way that you have described. The people and government of Quebec are already more than fair enough towards everybody, from wherever one comes.
And, before you say anything, I shall simply explain that, in order to be considered a true Quebecker, one only needs to wish to be. That’s all.
It was a nut-case with a gun, who probably had a death wish. I don’t think anything political should be read into this tragedy. Sure, it was at times a divisive and nasty election campaign, but that’s becoming the norm in Canada. This guy was clearly deranged would probably have gone over the edge at any time for any reason.
Hello Jamie,
Wow…excellent editorial…well said. Can’t help but completely agree with your expressed sentiments.
Of course, you are quite right…quote from Jamie: “The politics of hate and intolerance have a history of only one thing; suffering and blood.”…”This is what happens when you institutionalize injustice.”
I fear, that as Quebec tightens the restrictions on English language and it’s citizens, they (English) will indeed “rise up” against apartheid rules and injustices!
Jamie asks: “The question is what are YOU going to do when you see it?” My answer is to expose the truth, for ALL to see and bear witness too!
And that my good Renard bleu is what I’m getting at. You are part of the problem. Until Quebec takes language out of the day to day of life it will truly not progress, and yes, even if it means a diminishment of French. You can’t gain in language by outlawing another. People compete all across Canada and the world. Language is not part of that equation.
In Lachute Quebec today: “In all honesty I hope The new premier is honest in her intentions. People r starting to be haters. Today I was in a public place with my son. I was told by a woman to go back to my country! as she overheard me speaking English. I am born and bred in Canada as were my parents.
Must we go there?” She’s actually born and bred in Quebec and works two government jobs in French.
A man died last night due to another fanatical attempt to salvage what vestage of ‘English’ culture he could within Quebec.
Another man, if he had a gun, in what appears to be a drunken rage over English being spoken on the street by out of province visitors would also have killed for his ’cause’ as though in his mind it was a just cause to fight for his culture having been stolen from him, as was the reason I do believe for a man really dying last night.
This is definitely a tale of two cities in a rerun,,,, but a rerun for keeps.
It truly is time to allow Quebec to have her way. She, Quebec and Pailine Marois are now in charge of the future of the French cultural fact. TOUGH LOVE is about to come down hard on our sister province and we, the other 9 provinces and territories MUST back away.
Clearly saying we are here but you cannot suck off your mothers utters any more. Go. Once you fine your limits, on your own just as an overgrown older child living at home must go out on their own, so too do you. You want it so much it’s enough to raise arms, then go. Do your grovelling as you must but do it without us.
Mr. Prime Minister Stephen Harper, do not any longer allow Quebec to win favor within our Parlamentary systems, equal ‘pay’ments must STOP. She has made the first move by denying CANADA. She then must bare the weight of our rath too.
To some language is a religion….
Le Renard bleu said;
September 5, 2012 at 7:21 pm
“Yes, Mr. Gilcig, and that man was a true Quebecker killed by an English speaker who happened to be quite mentally deranged and acting alone.
Seriously, I do not believe you. Quebec does not have to change in the way that you have described. The people and government of Quebec are already more than fair enough towards everybody, from wherever one comes.
And, before you say anything, I shall simply explain that, in order to be considered a true Quebecker, one only needs to wish to be. That’s all.”
Admin, that quote from Lachute is all over the internet. I’m sure we’ve all heard jerks saying stupid and nasty things. If you want to read some over the top anti-French or anti-Quebecois comments, spend a little time perusing some Alberta news sites like The Calgary Sun, and others.
I agree with you 100% Jamie! Unfortunately with this “Mad Dog” Marois at the helm, bloodshed will become more the norm unfortunately. The language issue has gone too far!!!!
….thinking of those poor families.
Keep up the good work PQ!
Wow! We sure know where Dave Windsor stands. I’m “utter”ly gobsmacked!
It is time for Ontarians, and especially former Quebecers like Jamie and myself, to think positively and wish Premier-elect Pauline Marois well as she has much to do. Pauline has served the public in the National Assembly for 30 years and held many cabinet posts including minister of finance, so she has much to offer. She plans to require firms with fewer than 50 employees to set up a working in French program. This is a change… so what?
I keep working on my French and watched the election for 3 hours on Radio-Canada Cogeco 22 from Montreal. A course in French conversation at St. Lawrence College would aid Jamie in his many business interests, much more than his
Anglo belly-aching from afar.
Hi Dave Windsor,
Am in complete agreement with your notion of “tough love” policies for Quebec, from now on.
Am glad that PM Harper will be negotiating for Canada and Canadians! He has his majority from the ROC, without Quebec votes or influence. Now, that Quebec has been eliminated from power, in Parliament he (PM Harper) is not restrained any longer by Quebec politics or antics. Thankfully, he will act in Canada’s best interests and not just for Quebec!!! Delightful change from his predecessors, I must say.
Appreciate your standing up and being counted:)
Amen, alléluia ! 😀 😀 😀
“…in order to be considered a true Quebecker, one only needs to wish to be. That’s all”, said Le Bleu.
Oh really? Why then Bill 101?
Admin,
This is just a suggestion, maybe, you should chose another topic to write on. May, I suggest…anything else?
– Language is a problem in Québec…but your story, is similar to what happened to me in Costco, some refuse to keep an open mind. I was told to speak english in Ontario, you were told to speak french because you were in Québec.
-Maybe jaime you should re read la loi 101. It does permit anglos who were born in Québec to go to english schools. So it does not disallow it. You said you werent gifted in language..or rather other languages. I still think that out of courtesy to your fellow Quebecers, you could have learned fluent french. you know as well as I do that Québec is probably the most bilingual province in the whole country.
“-Maybe jaime you should re read la loi 101. It does permit anglos who were born in Québec to go to english schools.”
Patrick, Patrick, Patrick. You just don’t get it or worse you do and don’t care. I am a Quebec born Canadian. I don’t owe courtesy to anyone to speak any language other than what I can or choose to. And of course I’d have limitations as a Unilingual Anglophone in Quebec; the same as a Unilingual Francophone just about anywhere else in the ROC. The difference is that there aren’t laws and legal actions penalizing them for it while there are for Unilingual Anglophones in Quebec who should not NEED permission where to go to school, or anything else.
What you said yesterday at 2047, Colleen McIntosh, is one of the reasons as to why I have no choice but to refuse the peace offering that you made to me last week. I do not believe in your sincerity.
Mr. Gilcig, speaking of Bill 101 in Quebec and the attitude of English Canadians towards French speakers, have you not read the comment that I posted on Monday in the evening about the letter to the editor written by Cory Cameron and published on 1 September? Please, do not make me explain it all again.
Renard I do not retain every single word printed on CFN. I will say Bill 101 is immoral and illegal, and only tolerated because of the Not Withstanding clause of a charter Quebec has not signed on to. It’s indefensible. If you need a law to put down English to protect French you should give up sir or madam.
It’s not about hating or disliking French. I have zero problem with French. But don’t tell me what sign to put on my business or how to live my life. And that should be right across this great country of Canada and yes, I have no problems with a Francophone feeling the same way about their language anywhere else in Canada.
This language war is a total waste of time, money and resources and is divisive. We all can live together if we respect each other and don’t force anyone artificially irregardless of language, race, or ideology.
Headline writers rule the world….very clever.
Blue fox, the way French is being thrust on Anglophones, in Quebec and out, needs to be addressed by all. Soon, a few hundred years more will just breed more contempt on either side.
French language training for kids spends way too much on the many nuances needed for proper French grammar. Most kids would learn more if it would help them listen to a hockey game or order a meal at McDonalds. Very few will go on to be lawyers or translators and pushing the majority (by reserving government jobs for “bilingual”) to learn another more difficult language than English, is increasingly unpalatable. People like to do things because they want to, or will if they can actually see or need a benefit, and push back when forced.
This is not only impinging upon Anglo rights but also those of Francophones who wish to provide their children with a better future by learning a second language. The English in French schools leaves a lot to be desired. It’s about keeping your own ignorant at the expense of the Anglo / Allophone community who happen to use English as their first language.
Bill 101 and several parts of it was deemed unconstitutional, not only by the Supreme Court of Canada but by the UN. How hypocritical is it to covet a seat at the UN (as Quebec politicians do) and then outlaw learning or posting any other language than French?
Also, what really irks me, is this land belongs to the natives, so this “we were here first” bullsh!t doesn’t wash with me! What are Francophones doing to help preserve Native languages? I’ll tell you, absolutely nothing, as a matter of fact they look at them with contempt due to what they are entitled to. They are quite content of having them stick to their reserves and not bother with Quebec politics.
How can you shut up one million people from speak or displaying a language? A: Bill 101!!! It breeds discrimination, like it or not, it’s that simple and the superiority complex that goes along with it! It’s disgusting.
Those who do not live as Anglos in Quebec always seem to be those who comment on blogs like this and haven’t a clue as to what it’s like to live as an Anglo! It would be like me saying I know how it is to live as a Francophone outside Quebec, that is not my reality so I do not know. Until you’ve live the life, refrain from the comments as your experiences will never come close to living as an Anglo when you are Francophone. I’ve heard all the stories before, people professing to try living as an Anglo, I’m sorry, that is not the same, regardless, you have an accent, just as I do in French, mine is very good, but I still have an accent.
That’s so funny bleu, “in order to be considered a true Quebecker, one only needs to wish to be. That’s all.”
That logic only works in Kansas when you click on your red shoes
Sorry Mr/Ms Foxy Blue, I don’t want to hurt your ego but not everyone reads your opinions and if they do, your electronic missives may not be that memorable.
Agree with Stella. The sky is not falling. This was another nut, in likely yet another copycat case.
For the politics of hate and intolerance in our backyard, look no further than the Republican right and their clone in Sussex Drive, Mr. Firewall.
On how best to deal with the politics of hate and intolerance, check out Bill Clinton’s speech to the 2012 Democratic National Convention.
Do not understand why the shooter in kebec is being tagged as an anglophone! He spoke french. I believe he was probably a franco with an active brain cells who sees the reality of the disgusting behaviour of the franco fools and is reacting against his own people out of frustration and total understanding of the consequences resulting. Why can’t the fools see the truth????? Guess it has something to do with “fools”!!!!
Is enoughcrap saying that Richard Henry Bain’s murderous actions should have been expected because Pauline Marois was elected premier, and his actions were justified? Unbelievable!
Reading Gerry F. further up, and Ed’s comment too. Well Gerry, I agree with you. Here though the difference is and should only be a choice. A CHOICE is a personal desire to want to learn another language, French, English , Spanish or otherwise. More power to us. I too have enroled in a French course and my wife continues her studies.
Here in lies the rub for ‘the rest of the story’,
We or those of us in the work force in order to get a government job anywhere in this country as YOU WELL KNOW are REQuIRED not only to have French but to BE French to be hired. Equality for all is lost to the 80/20 rule and is now turned upside down in Canada to 20% first the 80% can suck on eggs and adopt to the average $20,000 family incomes lower than the government, no not just government but all public paid jobs as in the health field as well. How freakin fair is that Gerry. It is plain WRONG to force this issue on the majority of Canadians.
Ed, I hear you man, yet tough love is how Quebec wants to play with us but your innuendo would be that it would not be fair of us to apply the pressure right back. I do not agree. It is well past time to simply say NO to Quebec as they struggle to FIND THEIR OWN WAY IN THIS NEW DIMENTION this alternate universe in a bubble now THEY CALL FREEDOM.
All federal entities should now withdraw from le Belle du Province as the need warrants. DO NOT ADD ANY MORE FEDERAL DEPARTMENTS TO THE QUEBEC LANDSCAPE unless it is to become a Diplomatic Embassy to represent the rest of Canada.
Now is the time to put our foot/feet down.
I well know that the majority of French Quebec are wonderful, tolerant and kind people, yet its obviously the squeaky wheel heads that won the day and it is those we must squeak back with with no more lolly coddling. ENOUGH.
I BELIEVE I SAY THESE THINGS WITH THE HEARTS OF MOST ‘ENGLISH’ only’s across this whole nation of CANADA.
My own sister is somewhat cool to my issue, I will admit that.
She is so lovely and naive.
¨Patrick, Patrick, Patrick. You just don’t get it or worse you do and don’t care. I am a Quebec born Canadian. I don’t owe courtesy to anyone to speak any language other than what I can or choose to.¨
Then my poor jaime, you don’t get it. Its the lack of courtesy, or part of it that started this whole language mess. Yes, It is a free country, and I’m very happy for that, but pleeeease, to say you don’t owe courtesy to anyone in regards to language shows not only bitterness but is just plain MEAN. If you don’t owe anyone courtesy to at least make an effort, then you shouldn’t have a right to complain about language at all. Its the attitude of, ¨i chose to be unilingual english, if you want to speak to me, speak to me in english, or don’t speak to me at all.¨ Don’t you see that there is something wrong with that.
¨And of course I’d have limitations as a Unilingual Anglophone in Quebec; the same as a Unilingual Francophone just about anywhere else in the ROC.¨
– A unilingual anglo can get by anywhere in Canada, easily, even in Trois-Rivières. A unilingual francophone can’t have a hard time in Cornwall.
“The difference is that there aren’t laws and legal actions penalizing them for it while there are for Unilingual Anglophones in Quebec who should not NEED permission where to go to school, or anything else.”
– Oh well there are.
-Try and find a french school in Kingston without making a 30 min bus ride.
– Francophones are still feeling the effects of regulation 17.
– Mike harris wanted to close down Montfort, the only french teaching hospital in Ontario.
– Do we have a french university in Ontario ? NOPE.
-We had to fight to keep our cité collégiale. (no thanks to mike harris who wanted to close it)
The only limitations on schools bill 101 gives is for immigrants. If you are canadian and move to Québec, and are unilingual anglo you have access to english schools. IF you are coming from another country, and want to live in Québec, you have to go to french schools. Québec is one of the rare (if not the only province) that controls its immigration. So in a sense, you saying you couldn’t go to, or as unilingual anglo couldn’t attend english schools is false.
Man i’m getting tired of proving you wrong.
( this is not intended to be mean but direct…then again, you might delete it this post..And on that… I don’t care..proving you wrong is reward enough for me)
Apparently the link I gave about pauline marrois and a hole in the back curtains…well its a pixel problem not a hole. Just a correction.
Lynn, the reason why Quebec has declared itself a Nation, is an attempt to exonerate if from what the Official Languages Act really is… “Genocide against the English Language and Culture”.
Ed your twisting enoughcraps words -That’s called misinformation .
Perhaps propaganda .Violence is never to be condoned!
It was just matter of time a Individual who has yet to be deemed mentally ill ,acted out in violence .
But with Madam Marois being elected and her ethnocentric policies may have pushed this individual over the edge .
Now with the disillusioned 1.5 million in Quebec and 1 out of 50 with serious mental issues that still leaves a significant population very DISTRESSED.
I see this as only the beginning of the violence as more people feel loss of hope and discriminated against this will only breed more hostility .
As Madam Marois continues to push her ethnocentric policies …..expect to see a recourse !!!!
For when you back any creature in the corner no matter its size “It will bite back” when it feels “THREATENED”.
Reread and TRY to understand english!!!! There is no reason to label the shooter as an anglo – he spoke french. Where did I justify his actions, fool? I said that he could very easily be a franco who recognizes the situation created by francos in kebec and fears consquences if the situation does not change and change quickly!!!! If the shoe fits, wear it!!! The anglos did not create the problems, francos did. Clear enough for you now?????
Marios said English rights will be “fully protected”, to use a Quote from Mr.Galganov. “the unrestricted use of the English language is against the law iin Quebec” How can she say such a thing with a straight face? Where’s the media to question this bogus statement?
Daddies little separatist said:
Then my poor jaime, you don’t get it. Its the lack of courtesy, or part of it that started this whole language mess. Yes, It is a free country, and I’m very happy for that, but pleeeease, to say you don’t owe courtesy to anyone in regards to language shows not only bitterness but is just plain MEAN.then you shouldn’t have a right to complain about language at all.
First of all its a choice! -lack of courtesy is bill 101 -courtesy is French Service Language Act-for the French in Ontario is treated far better then the English in Quebec.
Daddies little separatist said:
” If you don’t owe anyone courtesy to at least make an effort,”
my comment is:
How do you know how much effort he made? and who are you to Judge him for it?
“Try and find a french school in Kingston without making a 30 min bus ride.”
– “Francophones are still feeling the effects of regulation 17.”
#1-Oh my god you really are not that bright! Better to keep Quiet then remove all doubt right Patrick?
My child lives 10 min away from school but takes near 40 min ride -So you think that what 2-% of Kingston should have quicker access to school because they are “FRENCH” how ethnocentric of you !!!!!!!
French first ,right PATRICK french first.
What effects are they feeling from a law that has been introduced before your Grandfather and abolished prior to your father has a vast impact TODAY?
Or is it the continued resentment with racial tendencies within the francophone community that keeps those fires going?
Why do I bother writing to this one ,not much to rationalize with between those ears .
Barry….if you don’t live in Quebec, why should it bother you? If you do……just a reminder, this is Ontario.
Yep…..the “occupy movement” also thought they were tough, that they could dictate, change the rules and overule the Gov. (in NYC). Can someone tell me what they accomplished? What about the student protesters in Montreal? Did they win? Just asking……
Patrick you say “Try and find a french school in Kingston without making a 30 min bus ride.” That’s not a big deal Patrick..I live in the country and some of the students who attended the only English School within our jurisdiction were on the bus for almost an hour. Keep in mind many of the schools they bypassed along the way offer Immersion only.
@elizabeth Re: September 6, 2012 at 8:18 pm POST
elizabeth wrote, “Marios said English rights will be — fully protected. — How can she say such a thing with a straight face?”
–
Wacky eh? But, it’s the same kind of thing that some in this forum do. They are talking out of both sides of their mouth.
–
Just like how Marois’ statement about “fully protecting” the English language is such a bogus, asinine, crazy statement that defies logic on all levels, these people say similar things. Stella said, “Quebec has the highest tuition fees of all of Canada.” how messed is that ?
–
I often sit here shaking my head in TOTAL disbelief while wondering if they truly believe what they are saying or are they just simply that thick?
–
And as for, “Where’s the media to question this bogus statement?”
–
Bought and sold by the same churn that has our politicians saying (with a smirk on their face http://youtu.be/F5H8WCbueNs ), government jobs MUST BE bilingual because … Well, just because… THEY just have to be.” Talk about a good reason, eh? We really must start questioning this on a more serious level.
on average francophones have to take 1 one hour to two hour bus rides every day. If anglos have to do that as well, of which I doubt, that shouldnt happen either.
-higlander, I’m just going on what he said. I read with attention his posts, and no, I don’t know him.
– How is bill 101 a lack of curtesy ? It doesn’t restrict you a from attending an anglo school ?
– French language services act is there to help out 500 thousand people in only. And those 25 regions have to be one of two things an designated area or a ¨région administrative¨. Two different things that say where there is 5000 francophones and more, they have rights protected.
– If you chose to be unilingual anglo or franco for that matter, more power to you…just don’t cry discrimination when someone bilingual gets a job and you don’t. Don’t blame the law, don’t blame bilingualism (Less then 1 % of the budget of canada), blame the person you see in the reflection in the mirror
Well, the numbers in Kingston tell me, I am just a taxpayer too, that there is little need for French schools in Kingston.
English only speakers – 86.59%
French only speakers – .31%
Niether Eng or Fr – .37%
Eng & Fr – 12.72%
I have some issues with how it is decided who is Francophone Patrick. How many of the 18,000 in Kingston who self declare as Eng & Fr have French as thier first language for example. How many are prisoners from somewhere else. Canada is getting further away from providing core services and giving everyone what they want. We have no more money!
enoughcrap……yep Bain is english that is why he was being tagged as an anglophone. **s** Not only tagged as an anglophone but a crack pot with a chip on his shouders. He also seen the behavior of the franco fools and will spend time behind bars…….which he deserves **s**
So……if Marois said that english rights are going to be fully protected what’s the problem?
yorlik…….so I erred, big deal!!! I can’t be right all the time **smile**
We just ask you to prove your point by facts -in fact you should be used to being corrected ,by the many false statements.
Or was that propaganda you were spreading?
It’s never good enough is it Patrick. With just .31 % of Kingston’s population being French speakers you really should be thankful that there is a French school..and that it is only a 30 minute bus ride away.
Rosie, by the stats provided, you gotta consider the 12% as well. I can express myself in both official languages, but I don’t want to go to an english school. Enough assimilation… So 13% of kingston speak french…. so lets add this up, the population of kingston is roughly 123 000 people. So, if 13 % of it is french speaking, that means… 16 thousand people… they have a right to education in french…if they so require. Lets not do to french speaking people in kingston what you allege is done to anglos in Québec.
It seems Patrick that we both agree; we want our children educated in our mother tongue. But the difference between you and I is that I am happy that there still is a school that offers English education where I live but you on the other hand is complaining about a thirty minute bus ride. It doesn’t matter to me how far they travel, within reason of course, but what matters to me most is that the choice is available. I’m not sure however, if that choice will be there if the push for Immersion schooling continues. It is frustrating to think so many parents want to enroll their children in Immersion, at the expense of a lot of good English teachers and for what really. Most don’t continue in high school and a handful walk away with an Immersion Certificate and (even they don’t pass the French test). I completely understand you wanting your children educated in the language they understand and am happy you have the schools available to you but so many of you seem to think it is really stupid of us if we want the same.